The Rail and Road Pod Episode 23: Chief Inspectors of Railways special edition

Saj Chowdhury

Hello and welcome to the 23rd edition of the Rail and Road Pod. My name is Saj Chowdhury. This is a very special one, as we bid farewell to our outgoing Chief Inspector of Railways, Ian Prosser, and welcome Richard Hinds to the role. Ian has been in the position for more than 15 years and looks back at what improvements have been made to health and safety in rail during his tenure, while Richard outlines what challenges the industry faces moving forward. Before we meet the pair, let's have a quick run-through of ORR's recent work. Our consumer team were busy with reports on the delivery of passenger assistance, the experience of disabled passengers' accessibility difficulties with the rail complaints process, third-party retailer fees, and the reliability of lifts at stations. We also gave the green light to open access services between London and Stirling, and published a new track access dashboard to hold industry to account on efficient use of the rail network. You can find out more about our work at orr.gov.uk.

Now, back to this episode. Britain's railways are one of the safest in Europe, and it's been the role of the Chief Inspector of Railways to ensure the industry remains vigilant when it comes to health and safety.
Ian Prosser has been at the helm since 2008, and I opened up by asking him about what the main issues were in the industry back then.

Saj Chowdhury

First of all Ian, congratulations on your long and distinguished career as His Majesty's Chief Inspector of Railways. If I take you back to 2008, were you filled with some trepidation when you took on the role? And what were the major health and safety issues in the industry back then?

Ian Prosser

I don't think I was full of trepidation. I was a bit interested because I really was determined to try and change the HMRI (His Majesty's Railway Inspectorate) as it was then and the industry's culture. Because I've been in the industry for about eight years already, both in London Underground environment and the mainline railway, I did have some prior knowledge of what was going on. Just before I took over, one issue that did come up was the fact that we'd had the Grayrigg derailment, and that was obviously very serious, and RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) were investigating that - their first major investigation. I set out a vision, at the beginning, which is zero-industry caused fatalities and major injuries, and ever-reducing risk and having excellence in health and safety management. So that got a bit of traction, but it also got a bit of criticism to start with. But I then realised, and I went through that at my interview, so I did come to the organisation with that very much in mind that I would try and push the regulator to be more proactive and drive the industry forward over the next few years. There was also issues around level crossings, track, obviously, because that was an issue in terms of the Grayrigg derailment, Potters Bar and Hatfield, et cetera, that had happened in recent years.

There's evidence structures seem to be an issue, in terms of inspecting them, there still is to be some extent. The other area that was a focus for me was the whole area of health management. I had a very strong push on health over the last 15 years, and that has, I think, benefited a lot of people. There's still more to do, but that was a big push. The other thing is that we've reduced the risk on the mainline railway by half during that time in my post, particularly around level crossings and other areas. Track, for example, is the safest it's ever been. We have had some real improvements and successes as an industry. LUL (London Underground Limited) has continued to maintain its good safety record and its health management, which was advanced of the mainline railway. Also, they have successfully commissioned Crossrail, which is a tremendous piece of new infrastructure. It was very complex. It did take a bit longer, it cost a bit more money, but that was probably predictable with the amount of integration that was required with three different signalling systems as well being used. It was a very complex project that has produced a wonderful piece of railway for the country and the capital.

Those are some of the overall achievements. I think the last one I just like to mention is the whole approach to regulation in terms of the development of RM3, which was to try and get the sector themselves to improve and have a method of doing so in terms of being able to identify where their weaknesses were and moving forward with proper safety improvement plans, etc. And so RM3 being accepted now by the whole sector, I think, is a tremendous achievement for ORR and shows that we're a very proactive regulator, that is admired across the world and it is used in other sectors as well. So that has been a big achievement for the ORR in the last 15 years.

Saj Chowdhury

Thank you. And that's a strong list of achievements during your time. I'm going to ask you a slightly tricky question, although Richard, sitting next to you, may want to take notes of the answers. Now, how have you dealt with difficult situations where those in industry did not necessarily agree with the health and safety improvements you and ORR wanted to push forward?

Ian Prosser

My whole vision of zero industry-cause fatalities in excellence health and safety management caused some people to say, well, I just wanted to gold-plate everything and cost lots of money. But we countered that by strong communication in terms of also producing a very simple table that showed what excellence is and what it isn't. What it is, it's not gold plating at all. That's not what it is, but it's about having straightforward processes, trust in the organisation, and doing the right things right first time. So there's a very much... communication has been part of really involving the industry and getting the message across that we wanted to improve. At times, like with level crossings, initially, it was to have people be quite brave. One of the most important moments in the area of level crossing was the Elsenham case, which I reopened, which caused some noise at the time. We've been able to change the way people think about level crossings in the industry completely. That includes some people in the regulator. That is not necessarily the fault of the individual. You've got to have proper assessment of risk and actually take actions that are needed.

Ian Prosser

Because some of these accidents that were going on at level crossings were being repeated. They were an accident waiting to happen, as was Elsenham. I think that's where sometimes you have to be quite brave, and I've said that in some of the interviews I've done recently, and actually make some quite tough decisions that make people stand up and don't get pushed over. You're not going to be thanked if something goes wrong and you haven't really been as strong as you might have been. So it is being brave, being determined, and communicating what you're trying to do effectively, because that's really important.

Saj Chowdhury

Richard, congratulations on your new role. Now, do you know what you've let yourself in for?

Richard Hines

Thanks, Saj. I've worked for Ian for about three years, so I think I've got a pretty good idea of what's required. But yes, I've got a clear understanding of what Ian's established, and we should pay respect, I think, to the huge impact he's had across Great Britain's railways and the really significant achievements he's made in terms of reducing risk and the current position. But there's many challenges ahead. We've had a decent handover between us. We worked together really closely over that period, and I'm really looking forward to the next step in my career, picking up the mantle from Ian and taking forward the challenge, I think.

Saj Chowdhury

You've obviously sat next to him and heard about the list of achievements that Ian and the organisation have managed regarding health and safety on the railways over the past 15 years-plus This is obviously a mammoth job, and you don't need reminding of this. But I'm going to ask you a question that may require an equivalent-sized answer. What are you hoping to achieve in this role?

Richard Hines

Yeah, so thanks for reminding me, Saj. I think there's a number of areas here. But the first thing to reflect is that in general terms, the industry is in a good place, so there is no burning platform, as it were. I think my approach would be one of evolution, not revolution in terms of our regulatory role. The collaborative approach that Ian has built across the sector, that ability to convene, to bring together, and to be tough where needed, is something that I'm really keen to continue with. There are challenges, I think, across all railway operations, and I include the non-mainline sector in that as well. So London Underground, the tram systems, safety by design, and the Channel Tunnel. But it's about bringing people together, it's about having a real clear vision about what you want to achieve. For me, it's about keeping things simple, which I think you've heard Ian say, and being quite precise about what you want to see adjusted and moved. Then, yeah, just really, I think, exercising the capability that exists across the railway industry and making sure that it's focused on the right things. Ian spoke about the focus on health and how he moved that from something that was perhaps not in the forefront of people's mind to where it is perhaps now in terms of an equal focus.

I think there's more work that can be done in that space to ensure that health is given an appropriate level of focus in addition to safety, because safety tends to be something that's really visible, really obvious. We've spoken a bit about the Grayrigg derailment that Ian came into in this post, but health exposure over a long period of time can have a really detrimental impact to workers and also productivity, and leave people in a position where they have really debilitating diseases and that impacts which really affect their life. That's an important area. I think we shouldn't also underestimate the growth and maturity of ORR and HMRI, as previously known, in terms of its capability, because Ian has established a really firm footing in terms of training inspectors. We've got a career path that spans from the most junior grade in the organisation through to the chief Inspector. If you want to take that progress through the organisation. We've got really good examples of people that have joined in those junior grades and administration jobs and policy roles that are now our inspectors, our principal inspectors. I suspect for the future, future Deputy Directors will emerge from that group and that cohort that Ian has built and led during his time at ORR. So that's really quite important to me.

Saj Chowdhury

Thank you, Richard. You just mentioned before that you have met Ian several times over health and safety matters over the years. But now, Richard, have the chance to ask Ian Prosser about which pitfalls to avoid. Sorry, I jest, not pitfalls, the chance to ask him about his time as Chief Inspector.

Richard Hines

Yeah, so Ian, I think you've shared some of your biggest achievements. What things do you reflect on that you wish you to perhaps focus more attention on earlier? Any things in particular that you've reflected on on the back of your 16 years?

Ian Prosser

I think we responded quite well to the impending changes caused by climate change, and the response is there. But I think that's going to be very important for Richard to focus on in the years ahead, because I don't think we've really understood all the issues that might emerge with our infrastructure. It's very old, most of it, and it's obviously being impacted by the variation in weather patterns, large rainfalls, and then dry spells, very dry spells and very hot spells. I think that's going to be an important area, not just for Richard, but also the team and also the industry over the next few years. The other area that I think... because we've had some interesting times when there's been significant changes in the industry, particularly in Network Rail who have changed the maintenance organisation at least twice or maybe three times since I've been in this role. I think change in the future, there was always going to be change going forward. I think that's something that the team will need to really focus on and understand and make sure that it's done properly. We had one good piece of work done then in terms changes, which is when Network Rail did putting passengers first - it was managed properly. But it's going to be making sure that those changes that take place, probably in the next couple of years, are managed properly by the duty holders, and that we don't drop a ball somewhere.

Richard Hines

I guess in over 16 years, you've built some quite extensive relationships and networks across the industry. How would you characterise them? What do you think are their greatest strengths? How are they best applied?

Ian Prosser

That's a good question. Fortunately, because I've been in the job so long, I have been able to do that. But I think it's very important for the Chief Inspector, Director of Railway Safety, to actually be seen around the industry, known around the industry. And that's not just the duty holders, senior management. I've attended Network Rail's Board Committee a number of times over the years, twice a year, most times, and obviously been an observer on the RSSB board for 15 years. So you are seen as part of the industry, not totally isolated. I think that's very important, and that helps build relationship and trust. The other areas, that's not to forget the other parts of the industry, like the unions. Obviously, we have strong relationships with the unions and the leaders, which has helped us in certain difficult times, like COVID, where that really did help a lot, having those good, strong relationships. So it's important to keep in touch and have regular meetings or whatever with those people, particularly the leaders. And the other parts of the industry that contribute quite significantly, some of it through RSSB (Rail safety and Standards Board), like the ROSCOS (rolling-stock companies) and the supply chain.

I've always had a good link with the National Rail Contractors Group, which is all the big contractors who will give you some feedback on how they interact with Network Rail and others in the sector in terms of things that are going on and things they find difficult to deal with in terms of some of the behaviours of the duty holders. Also the rolling stock manufacturers, they are a big part, although they're all foreign-owned, if you like, from overseas, but they have some factories here. It's important to actually interface with them because many of them now do the maintenance of the trains they've built. It's important to have good relations with them. It's making sure you're interfacing the whole sector, not just the main duty holders.

Richard Hines

I've had a little bit of exposure to our role internationally with the Channel Tunnel and the job I've done for the last three years here as head of the UK delegation to the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority. I just wondered, Ian, what you thought about our colleagues internationally, the standards they work to? And also what they think about us and our approach?

Ian Prosser

Well, prior to us leaving the EU, we were very strongly regarded in ERA (European Union Agency for Railways), and that was just borne out recently by them inviting me to their 20th anniversary. We contributed a great deal to the changes that took place across Europe in terms of safety management systems and the directives, et cetera, and the common methods systems. I think we were very highly regarded and are very supported in terms of European partners in railway safety. We also got traction around the world because we have done our international small-scale visits and helping other people with their issues and problems. I think, therefore, we are highly regarded around the world as probably the strongest health and safety regulator in railway terms in the world. Our inspectors have been in many different countries giving advice and support. I think that's actually important also from a recruitment retention point of view, because people do see that this is a good place to come to quickly get trained. As you know, one example is the chief health and safety officer of Network Rail is the ex-principal inspector here, worked with me for a good few years before he went to Network Rail.

We have provided the industry with a lot of talent in terms of capability and professionalism in this area. Our stakeholder surveys have always been very strong in terms of how effective the stakeholders across the country think we are. Very strong indeed. If the pollsters, in some respects, find it quite an incredible regulator to get such high scores. So I think it's very important that that helps attract and retain people. It also helps our reputation and the fact that people will listen to us. I've once or twice been told, "when you say something, people listen to you". I think that's really important. Certainly Richard has had that success dealing with the Channel Tunnel and people there changed a lot of the approaches they have, and I think they do listen to him. They do indeed listen to him. That's really important.

Saj Chowdhury

Thank you, Richard, for those questions. Now, Ian you've received many tributes and continued to do so obviously since you announced that you're stepping down.

Ian Prosser

Yeah, they're all very nice, but I think it's helped being in the job for quite a long period of time. I think that's given it some stability because when I first joined, it had a pretty difficult time, old HMRI, during the period of Ladbroke Grove and Grayrigg, and before that, Potters Bar and Hatfield. There'd been quite a few changes. Obviously, it was then pulled out of HSE (Health and Safety Executive) and put into ORR, so there'd been a lot changes in a not very stable situation for a number of years. So I think I've been able to give that stability. I have tried to be fair but firm. I think that's borne out in those comments, which are very nice, and the fact that I have communicated with people on a regular basis. I think that's important. You've got to be visible. That's something that I think sometimes in the past, the regulator hasn't been.

Saj Chowdhury

Well, thank you, Ian. That brings us almost to the end of this podcast special. Ian, you shared your final thoughts of your time as Chief Inspector, but what do you plan to do now?

Ian Prosser

Good question. Well, I can't just go and play golf all day. I'm going to play a bit more golf because I haven't played much for 12 years. I've not done many of my hobbies for 12 years. So I intend, though, to do some bits and pieces. I'm going to train incident and accident investigation. At some point, I've done the training already, and it's a method I've used in the past. In fact, I've known about it, used it for 30 years, so that'll be nice and different. And also a bit of work, perhaps as a non-executive director in other sectors, providing advice to boards and challenging them to improve their health and safety. Maybe also a little bit of work overseas, if that comes to fruition in terms of building on and improving their contributions to health and safety.

Saj Chowdhury

That's great. Thank you, Ian. Good luck for the future wherever it takes you next. Richard, good luck in the new role. Thank you.

Saj Chowdhury

Once again, best wishes to you, Ian, and no doubt we'll be hearing a lot more from Richard in the coming episodes. That's all for this podcast. Remember, you can find out more about our health and safety duties and also our other work in rail and road by visiting orr.gov.uk. And of course, you can follow us on our social channels, including X, which is formerly Twitter, LinkedIn, and YouTube. Thank you for listening.